Better Npc 1.3.1

16 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

Got this list with the oilrig scientist dropchances.... https://rustlabs.com/entity/oil-rig-scientist#order;sort=3,1,0
I see most of the dropchances are below 1%......

Does the prefab loot share the same dropchances as i specify in "Own loot"?
Or does the "Own loot" list have their own dropchance

So the only thing is that I'm not 100% sure on mixing the two if it's going to be that simple, but I do believe that yes it actually is. Most people just use very high percentages and don't realize that even giving something a 50% chance is going to actually spawn A LOT. Organizing smaller percentages makes way more sense otherwise they get too spread out and you nearly never see some things. I would say this is a safe way to use the probabilities.

16 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

I see there are just like 15 items  or so in the prefab list that has 5% or higher drop chance.
Ive been using 5% on the "own loot" items.....
So if they share the same dropchances i can maybe just lower it....... most of the items has 0.2% droprate and lower.

  Repeating myself I suppose but yes definitely on to something here and I think once you adjust you'll be happy with the results.

16 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

Sorry... this was pretty hard to put into words with my english skills..... hope u understand.

No worries I think I've understood everything.

35 minutes ago, CupsOhJoe said:

This is very strange way too many NPC

Most of them are coming from the hackable crate, the chinook event. If you'd like to disable that event until we are able to patch that issue and keep it from happening. They are spawning with the crate and not despawning if it leaves. Most of us like that it works this way but it does add up in regards to the hackable crate event, it works better in other context.

If possible, please add the option to include a sound prefab such as the scarecrow's murmur from assets/prefabs/npc/murderer/sound/breathing.prefab, or the old scream prefab when the character got shocked. Another thing would be the ability to add a way for the NPC to deal damage without using a weapon, for those who want to create zombie NPCs that don't hold chainsaws or knives. These two additions would greatly enhance the experience for those who enjoy creating events or things for PVE servers, for example.

3 hours ago, Morceli said:

If possible, please add the option to include a sound prefab such as the scarecrow's murmur from assets/prefabs/npc/murderer/sound/breathing.prefab, or the old scream prefab when the character got shocked. Another thing would be the ability to add a way for the NPC to deal damage without using a weapon, for those who want to create zombie NPCs that don't hold chainsaws or knives. These two additions would greatly enhance the experience for those who enjoy creating events or things for PVE servers, for example.

Adding current assets as sounds is under consideration but will need some extensive testing before being accepted and implemented. Stay tuned on that aspect!

In regards to the weapon have you tried searching for invisible weapons? I believe there is a couple invisible combat knife skins for example that can achieve this pretty well without anyone knowing how until you tell them.

On 2/21/2023 at 8:39 PM, Jbird said:

So the only thing is that I'm not 100% sure on mixing the two if it's going to be that simple, but I do believe that yes it actually is. Most people just use very high percentages and don't realize that even giving something a 50% chance is going to actually spawn A LOT. Organizing smaller percentages makes way more sense otherwise they get too spread out and you nearly never see some things. I would say this is a safe way to use the probabilities.

 

  Repeating myself I suppose but yes definitely on to something here and I think once you adjust you'll be happy with the results.

 

No worries I think I've understood everything.

Been puting this on hold for a while..... But started messing around with it again today.....
Tried now to set 0.1% chance for a item in the own list to spawn.... still there is a shitload of spawns on that item.......
Didnt notice any difference if i set 50% chance or 0.1% chance in the own list settings.....
So it seems like i actually need to add all the prefab items to own list and disable the combination of own list and prefab to make this right.....

4 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

Been puting this on hold for a while..... But started messing around with it again today.....
Tried now to set 0.1% chance for a item in the own list to spawn.... still there is a shitload of spawns on that item.......
Didnt notice any difference if i set 50% chance or 0.1% chance in the own list settings.....
So it seems like i actually need to add all the prefab items to own list and disable the combination of own list and prefab to make this right.....

You have to keep in mind that prefab pulls are a full loot pull from that prefab, not a single item from that loot table. I don't think you're understanding how it pulls a whole set from the prefab path. So yes I think to customize it the way you are trying to that you should use the own loot table.

Hi again...... im still struggling with loot table....
Now ive created a loot table with 95 items and changed in the config that only the "own list" shall drop....
Ive set  it to pick minimum 3 and maximum 4 items from the list..... Thats working fine.....
But then it comes to dropchance again.......
Ive set scrap to have 100% chance to drop from 10 to 30 scrap, and rest of the items equal chance to drop..... 10%
Still scrap wont drop every time as its suppose to do..... After 30 npc kills, none of them dropped scrap, but dropped 3-4 items from the list.....

"Own loot table (if the loot table type is 1 or 5)": {
        "Minimum numbers of items": 3,
        "Maximum numbers of items": 4,
        "Use minimum and maximum values? [true/false]": true,
        "List of items": [
          {
            "ShortName": "scrap",
            "Minimum": 10,
            "Maximum": 30,
            "Chance [0.0-100.0]": 100.0,
            "Is this a blueprint? [true/false]": false,
            "SkinID (0 - default)": 0,
            "Name (empty - default)": ""
          },
          {
            "ShortName": "lowgradefuel",
            "Minimum": 10,
            "Maximum": 30,
            "Chance [0.0-100.0]": 10.0,
            "Is this a blueprint? [true/false]": false,
            "SkinID (0 - default)": 0,
            "Name (empty - default)": ""
          },

Is it just me that are stupid?
When ive configured loot tables in other plugins ive never experienced these problems......

15 minutes ago, Hawkhill said:

Hi again...... im still struggling with loot table....
Now ive created a loot table with 95 items and changed in the config that only the "own list" shall drop....
Ive set  it to pick minimum 3 and maximum 4 items from the list..... Thats working fine.....
But then it comes to dropchance again.......
Ive set scrap to have 100% chance to drop from 10 to 30 scrap, and rest of the items equal chance to drop..... 10%
Still scrap wont drop every time as its suppose to do..... After 30 npc kills, none of them dropped scrap, but dropped 3-4 items from the list.....

"Own loot table (if the loot table type is 1 or 5)": {
        "Minimum numbers of items": 3,
        "Maximum numbers of items": 4,
        "Use minimum and maximum values? [true/false]": true,
        "List of items": [
          {
            "ShortName": "scrap",
            "Minimum": 10,
            "Maximum": 30,
            "Chance [0.0-100.0]": 100.0,
            "Is this a blueprint? [true/false]": false,
            "SkinID (0 - default)": 0,
            "Name (empty - default)": ""
          },
          {
            "ShortName": "lowgradefuel",
            "Minimum": 10,
            "Maximum": 30,
            "Chance [0.0-100.0]": 10.0,
            "Is this a blueprint? [true/false]": false,
            "SkinID (0 - default)": 0,
            "Name (empty - default)": ""
          },

Is it just me that are stupid?
When ive configured loot tables in other plugins ive never experienced these problems......

if you want then to drop scrap every time try changing this to 4.

"Which loot table should the plugin use? (0 - default; 1 - own; 2 - AlphaLoot; 3 - CustomLoot; 4 - loot table of the Rust objects; 5 - combine the 1 and 4 methods)": 4,

change this to  .

        "Minimum numbers of items": 1,
        "Maximum numbers of items": 1,

and add this as loot

            "ShortName": "scrap",
            "Minimum": 10,
            "Maximum": 30,
            "Chance [0.0-100.0]": 100.0,
            "Is this a blueprint? [true/false]": false,
            "SkinID (0 - default)": 0,
            "Name (empty - default)": ""

that way you should get the default loot spawn plus also your custom loot of scrap every drop.

As i said in my post..... i got 95 items in the list........  Scrap ive set 100% chance on drop and the rest 10%
Pasted only the 2  first items from the config file....... Would be unnessesary to post the whole list here......

And yes.... ive set loot table to 1 in config......
It chooses 3 or 4 items randomly from the list, but scrap dont always drop......
It seems like the plugin dont care what i define as chance to drop......

sorry bud cant help more have to wait for the dev to answer that one then. just check you are setting the correct loot table for the npc type you are killing ...

Ive tried combination of prefab and own loot before and its not working proper......
Thats why im now trying to make my own list of items that should drop instad......
For me, it seems like the plugin dont prioritizes the 100% drops first and ends up choosing 3-4 other items before it comes to the scrap that has 100% chance..... Then it cant choose that cause its already choosen max items allowed.....

 

Think i found a sollution for it.......
Ive set the dropchance on all other items to 0.5%
Then the plugin probably have to "roll the dice" multiple times on every items before it chooses which items to drop.....
Dunno if this is the best way to do it performance wise..... but seems to work

Edit: Still it happends a few times that the scrap doesent drop..... happends maybe 1-2 times of 50 kills.....
Not that big deal, but maybe the dev could take a look at it....
Plugin should pick the 100% drops first before the random loot that dont have 100% drop is choosen....

11 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

Think i found a sollution for it.......
Ive set the dropchance on all other items to 0.5%
Then the plugin probably have to "roll the dice" multiple times on every items before it chooses which items to drop.....
Dunno if this is the best way to do it performance wise..... but seems to work

Edit: Still it happends a few times that the scrap doesent drop..... happends maybe 1-2 times of 50 kills.....
Not that big deal, but maybe the dev could take a look at it....
Plugin should pick the 100% drops first before the random loot that dont have 100% drop is choosen....

Forgive me for skipping some of the other messages but you are still not understanding how the probability works unless you're going to turn off the min max requirement.

It's not picking certain drops first and you're trying to force it to. It's not going to. It's going to pick random drops and roll the probability to see if it goes through, it it goes through it takes a min/max slot. Period.

The only way to have as much control as you want is to turn min max requirement off and might likely want to reduce some of the extra loot aside from the 100% loot that you want.

The dev has already created a way to get guaranteed loot you are just trying to turn the more randomized (intentionally) loot table to work differently than it does.

The plugin will pick the 100% drops 100% of the time just turn min max off.

My point is that i want to restrict how many items dropping to maximum 3-4 iteems each time.
And by adding that many  items to the list will secure that the loot is randomized and not dropping the same items again and again.....

"It's going to pick random drops and roll the probability to see if it goes through, it it goes through it takes a min/max slot. Period."

Thats what im trying to explain..... its going through the list and rolling the dice until the min/max rule is met....
If the min / max number of items rule have been met before it comes to the scrap that ive set 100% drop on, its not going to add that since the max items rule is preventing that.......
Thats why the plugin should roll the dice on the items with highest dropchances first....

Ive also noticed something else with the config today......
When i upload the config file to the server and reload the plugin, it rearrange the order of the items ive defined in the list by dropchance.....
The lowest dropchances comes first, then the highest dropchances comes last on the list,
The scrap that ive set first in my configfile, will automaticly be moved to the end of the list because its the hightest dropchance (100%)

Maybe changing this in the plugin so the highest dropchances comes first on the list?
I guess the plugin start rolling from the beginning of the list, not the end.... Then there is a chance the Min / Max is filled up before it comes to the scrap.

Ive been playing around a lot with loot tables on Raidable bases plugin...... there i have no issues with this.....
100% drop loot will be choosen before it starts rolling on random loot.....
 

10 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

My point is that i want to restrict how many items dropping to maximum 3-4 iteems each time.
And by adding that many  items to the list will secure that the loot is randomized and not dropping the same items again and again.....

Having actually randomized loot assures that not the same thing drops again and again. Hence that is the way this plugin works.

10 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

"It's going to pick random drops and roll the probability to see if it goes through, it it goes through it takes a min/max slot. Period."

Thats what im trying to explain..... its going through the list and rolling the dice until the min/max rule is met....
If the min / max number of items rule have been met before it comes to the scrap that ive set 100% drop on, its not going to add that since the max items rule is preventing that.......

How are we now explaining the same thing? You don't need to explain that to me. It is what I have spent quite a bit of time now explaining to you or trying and failing perhaps. I gave a link did I not? It has probabilities of items that will barely drop in a vanilla crate, as examples of what you could use if you still insist on using min max and using probabilities and using random items as well. The 100% items are not being prevented, they just never even get rolled. Min and max chooses a number, once that number is hit no more loot pulls. The plugin is not written to start at 100%.

If you want that my recommendation is find a loot table plugin that you can build a loot table in, use that, and set the plugin to default settings instead or lead it to the path you desire within your custom built loot table. Several loot plugins are already supported.

10 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

Thats why the plugin should roll the dice on the items with highest dropchances first....

Agree to disagree. There are plenty of ways to customize the loot table without forcing for it to be rewritten. The majority of the community use it as is without issue or direct it to a 3rd party loot table otherwise if we want a different system such as what you are describing quite repeatedly.

10 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

Ive also noticed something else with the config today......

When i upload the config file to the server and reload the plugin, it rearrange the order of the items ive defined in the list by dropchance.....
The lowest dropchances comes first, then the highest dropchances comes last on the list,
The scrap that ive set first in my configfile, will automaticly be moved to the end of the list because its the hightest dropchance (100%)

Maybe changing this in the plugin so the highest dropchances comes first on the list?
I guess the plugin start rolling from the beginning of the list, not the end.... Then there is a chance the Min / Max is filled up before it comes to the scrap.

The order that the items are placed in the file don't matter that's just organization if anything at that point, the rolls are otherwise random intentionally.

Again the drop chance isn't the probability it will show in crate, it's the probability that if rolled, it will drop.

Have you even tried  removing the min max settings, or even if you don't do that just lower the percentages on things? Have you clicked the example link to look at low probabilities and high end probabilities in a vanilla crate for comparison? You have to do that if you're going to try to combine your own loot table with a vanilla loot table in my opinion. I can help write some documentation and tips for the developer to add to the description and just in general as the prefab pulls are the most mistaken so far in my experience doing support 24/7 for the guy.

10 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

Ive been playing around a lot with loot tables on Raidable bases plugin...... there i have no issues with this.....
100% drop loot will be choosen before it starts rolling on random loot.....

nivex is an awesome developer and wrote a loot table system, an extensive one, one that has several folders and blows most peoples minds, and it's configs on configs on configs in the data directory. It's sick and complicated and well written, not to mention well maintained and supported. I've even supported and will and do support his product when I can and have the time any chance I can. But that's another plugin and has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I have explained how THIS plugin works several times now and we are even explaining the same things at some points. I understand that some plugins work differently but this one doesn't unless you have a 3rd party loot table and point the loot to your loot table. Not to mention there is still always that option of trying lower probabilities or simply dropping the min/max requirement as it is the way to unlock getting 100% of what you want and then a few other items. With the right probabilities the numbers will be incredibly consistent.

At this point we are going back and forth quite a bit, are you in the Mad Mapper Discord already? Can you open a ticket there and you could tag me if wanted but tag KpucTaJl in a ticket and he can get back to you and discuss the suggestion. He has been busy working on updates recently and would hear it out and explain his answer. Guaranteed. He is already doing updates on a lot of plugins so while he is in update mode would be a good time to talk.

@Hawkhill if you need a link let me know I can get you one. It would be in some of your documentation and on the sites and such though in a couple places if you aren't already a member.

Ok...... final attempt to try to explain what im actually trying to do.......
When I tried earlier to combine prefab loot and own loot, it didnt work as i wanted,
So i decided to create my own list with 96 items and disable prefab loot.
That way the plugin has only one loot table to handle......

1. From the list of 96 items i want either 3 or  4 items to drop every time........  
2. I want the amount of scrap ive defined in that list to drop EVERY TIME!  This is the only item i want 100% drop on out of the maximum 3-4 items.
3. I also got a couple of items i want to drop more often than others...... Treasure Map for example..... So i have higher dropchance on these compared to the other items in the list

When i choose 100% on 1 item, that one should be prioritized over all other loot that has lesser droprate than 100%.
It shouldnt matter if i set 99.99% dropchance on all the other items. 
In RaidableBases for example this works. (Yes i know the loot system is different and are in another league)......
But ive defiined the 100% dropchance loot in the same list as the random loot. (Not use the baseloot system)
RaidableBases will still choose 100% drop chance loot first before filling up the boxes with the random loot until the maxlimit has been reached.

From the tests ive done with BetterNPC, the plugin seems to be rearranging the loot table ive defined in the config file.
Lowest dropchances will be moved to the top of the list and the highest dropchances are moved to the end of the loot table.
This happends automaticly when i reload BetterNPC.
In the early tests i defined different dropchances on every type of items, cause some items has more value than others....... its all about the balance.
i used values from 5% to 100%
Then i experienced that  the scrap that i set 100% drop on wouldnt drop because the maximum 3-4 items were filled with the other loot first.
When i lowered all other items dropchance down to 0.5% it worked better, but still 1-2 times out of 50 npc kills scrap didnt drop and the maximum items were filled with the other loot that didnt have 100% dropchance.
That made me suspect that the plugin start "rolling the dice" in the beginning of the loot table and keeps rolling one item at the time down the list until the maxlimit of 3-4 items.

You said that the order of the items in the list doesent matter, but i think it actually does.....
Items that was moved high up in the list dropped way more often han other items further down on the list in my tests.....

Bet there is a simple fix for this....... make the plugin arrange the loot table the other way. Highest dropchance on top and lowest on bottom.
That will probably prevent the 100% drop items to be rolled on last and have a chance that it wont drop at all cause the maxlimit has been reached.
No need for a complex rewrite of the loot system.

Disabling the min/max values will just make it more like a lottery......
One time only the scrap drops, next time 20 items drops depending on the rolls......  but yes..... the scrap will drop then......
But i want only 3-4 items drop PERIOD!

I made it work most of the time by lowering all other items to 0.5% dropchance. Only approx 2 of 50 failed and no scrap dropped.
So this isnt a serious issue........I can live with it....
But i might try to lower it even more to assure that the scrap will be added every time if this keeps happening more often.
That will increase the chances that the plugin ends up going through the whole loot table ive made without reaching the item maxlimit and then can place the scrap in the loot. Then it starts on top of the list rolling again to reach the max item limit.
But i have no idea if that will have any impact on the server performance since the plugin needs to roll many times on each item before it decides what loot will drop.....

What the dev decides to do with this is up to him...... Im just trying to help him making this awesome plugin even better.

Have a nice weekend..... im done discussing this matter....... already wasted too much time on this

@Hawkhill I invited you to the Discord. The developer is fine with discussing it, hearing more of what you have to say, having me open the discussion if you join to see if others want to join in or share their thoughts and opinions as well. I don't consider working towards resolution or having a debate is a waste of time. But that's just me. If you decide to stop explaining to me what I already acknowledged understanding multiple times, we will be in the Mad Mapper Discord and could take the conversation to the community.

May not have considered it at all yet but there is a large library of plugins that would be affected by a change like this so it's not just a simple quick easy sure let me do that for you type of thing. Just stating that in case it has literally not been considered.

Please though I'm sarcastic here and there but I am trying to help. I get what you are saying and have the whole time but it doesn't work like that currently. None of my suggestions or explanations were actually acknowledged but regardless, the developer and I are down to take the conversation and kick it around if you want to suggest changes. Otherwise we hope you have a great weekend as well and I'm sorry that my explanations and support have been turned more into an argument than an attempt to resolve your issues.

What more is there to say?
Im done discussing it........ And ive posted what i experienced.........
Shouldnt be needed to use another plugin to manage the loot when the settings are already there.....

Have a nice weekend and thanks for your time.......

4 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

What more is there to say?
Im done discussing it........ And ive posted what i experienced.........

There isn't more to say so I would appreciate if you would stop replying? You have already posted all of this before so we can move to the Mad Mapper Discord and you can discuss further with KpucTaJl your suggestion and request, or please drop it. I have been hired by the developer to support his work so any time this is a reply somewhere I will read it to see if it is important and I try to reply every time. I will seek moderation if at this point you're only going to continue on like this.
 

4 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

Shouldnt be needed to use another plugin to manage the loot when the settings are already there.....

Nobody said you had to. The settings are already there and you won't even try using them unless its going to work the way you want it to, which it won't right now. We've established that.

I suggested that if you're so stubbornly stuck on exactly how you want the loot to work, regardless of the fact that it is not how this plugin is written, that it was an option and one that I would recommend. It was a recommendation. Not once have I told you what to do or that you don't have options.

4 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

What more is there to say?

I'll say that you have been invited to the Discord and the developer is happy to have a discussion about this both privately and publicly in the Discord where our active community is. We would both be happy to help make sure that anyone interested can add their thoughts and opinions and maybe either another option would be written and included, or he might rewrite the loot table if enough people would like for it to change. I really don't know what the hell else you would want to hear or why you are still just repeating yourself at this point aimlessly now. There is a whole library of work that would also be added to or changed so just show the respect of coming to the Discord and talking to the developer. He is literally pumping out updates lately and I'm hired to be here and to offer anyone needing 1 on 1 or important matters to come to the Discord where we are most active and can usually respond quickest. If you aren't going to accept the invite no problem. Please stop saying anything at all if there is nothing more to say and you're done.

4 hours ago, Hawkhill said:

Have a nice weekend and thanks for your time.......

The weekend has actually started so I'm hoping to! Hopefully if any more of it is spent on this subject it will be IN THE MAD MAPPER DISCORD WHERE YOU CAN DISCUSS THIS WITH THE DEVELOPER.

I really do hope you have a great weekend as well. Thank you for the feedback and suggestions.

Hello,

I'm interested in this plugin but I'm missing an option for me to buy it.
I'm the admin of a PVE server and many players don't want aggressive NPCs or if there's an option:
that NPCs don't attack if you don't have a weapon in your hands.
Is it possible to modify this plugin to have this option? Do you know a plugin that would meet this criteria?

8 minutes ago, Dad Frog said:

Hello,

Hi

9 minutes ago, Dad Frog said:

I'm interested in this plugin but I'm missing an option for me to buy it.

To the right side of the screen there should be an option. Is there perhaps some kind of sanction where you live that is preventing it? Are you logged into your account?

9 minutes ago, Dad Frog said:

I'm the admin of a PVE server and many players don't want aggressive NPCs or if there's an option:

that NPCs don't attack if you don't have a weapon in your hands.
Is it possible to modify this plugin to have this option? Do you know a plugin that would meet this criteria?

This could actually in some ways be done yes, it might seem odd to some but it could still be done. I have not seen it tested that I know of but you could for example just reduce their sense range and view cone to such a point that they would hardly sense anything until provoked, and could then be given a larger chase range to chase players at that point. Most NPCs will always be aggressive to some extent but you can greatly control to what extent they act this way with a plugin like this.

Hello Jbird,

I know there was post a while back on getting the cargo ship NPC added to be customized. Did this work get done or still on the books?

-Sipher2k

On 3/29/2023 at 12:48 PM, Sipher2k said:

I know there was post a while back on getting the cargo ship NPC added to be customized. Did this work get done or still on the books?

Indeed it is on the list of things we want to do but will come at a time that we are able to do so without it affecting performance or being a concern in that sense. It's not quite there yet but it's something we revisit and look at.

Is there an option to have these Better NPC's attack other NPC's, for instance Zombie Horde?